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Post by perficad on Dec 19, 2022 18:54:28 GMT -5
Dear Chasen
This is a public notice that you are not to use my Flightplans in ANY Uploads / MODIFIED versions / ORIGINAL versions that you are planning in future, whether you are planning to sell them, or not sell them, on either this forum or other web sites.
I would appreciate an acknowledgment of this.
Thank you
Carl Edwards
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Post by cgold on Dec 19, 2022 22:50:28 GMT -5
chrisP: What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by sakura on Dec 19, 2022 23:53:53 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't perficad SELLING flight plans? Seems a bit weird to do on this forum. Also your making many of your's in the same time period so if he makes his own how do you have claim if it is? Do you have claim to all airlines you do between 96-2000? And we just can't use the same AIRLINES you made even if they are using another person's flight plan? As far as I am aware Chase makes his own from an old Airline book that displays schedules. ((sry for my English))
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Post by chasensfo on Dec 20, 2022 2:12:47 GMT -5
Wtf is this good lord xD I didn't even use your flightplans in anything what are you on about?
He is upset because he asked about getting involved with the installer and I told him AI is free, has always been free, and I'm not ok with him charging for flight plans because it's a middle finger to the community and all the free plans made since FS2002. And I suppose that made him feel compelled to do this? Seriously, just stop. All my early 80s plans are from Brian and Alec mostly, I don't know what the hell you're even talking about.
But ok, if you want to be public about this, I think it'd be pretty funny to make those 96 airlines off departed flights and release them all for free. But, you know,more accurate, too.
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Post by krsw757 on Dec 20, 2022 8:15:59 GMT -5
I think it’s incredibly ridiculous that you started this thread. Chasen literally has a thread just below yours from the same time period and is 50 pages longer. If anything, who’s to say your not using his info? Not to mention all of his hard work is free and here you are blasting the guy while SELLING basically the same content.
Chasen, I hope this doesn’t deter you from your work. I found this site about 2 years ago, and have spent that time watching your tutorials and adding your 98 flights ever since. I appreciate everything you’ve done and are in the process of doing for the community!
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Post by perficad on Dec 20, 2022 9:50:14 GMT -5
I think it’s incredibly ridiculous that you started this thread. Chasen literally has a thread just below yours from the same time period and is 50 pages longer. If anything, who’s to say your not using his info? Not to mention all of his hard work is free and here you are blasting the guy while SELLING basically the same content. Chasen, I hope this doesn’t deter you from your work. I found this site about 2 years ago, and have spent that time watching your tutorials and adding your 98 flights ever since. I appreciate everything you’ve done and are in the process of doing for the community! This thread is nothing to do with Chasen's 1998 flightplans. (Although from quickly reading through the last of those he has also started using other people's flightplans for that also, I wonder if he got their permission?) The thread is related to Chasen's installer (as he mentions above) where Chasen has told me that he is planning to sell it as a package using everyone else's Models, Repaints, and Flightplans for his own profit presumably?) Anyhow, as long as he is no longer planning to do this, then consider the matter closed and I will not mention it again. |
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Post by perficad on Dec 20, 2022 9:57:35 GMT -5
Though despite me messaging him and then having to finally resort to posting this publicly, I still do not have a confirmation from him that he is not going to use them in his payware Installer?
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Post by eth72s on Dec 20, 2022 11:42:59 GMT -5
I think it’s incredibly ridiculous that you started this thread. Chasen literally has a thread just below yours from the same time period and is 50 pages longer. If anything, who’s to say your not using his info? Not to mention all of his hard work is free and here you are blasting the guy while SELLING basically the same content. Chasen, I hope this doesn’t deter you from your work. I found this site about 2 years ago, and have spent that time watching your tutorials and adding your 98 flights ever since. I appreciate everything you’ve done and are in the process of doing for the community! This thread is nothing to do with Chasen's 1998 flightplans. (Although from quickly reading through the last of those he has also started using other people's flightplans for that also, I wonder if he got their permission?) The thread is related to Chasen's installer (as he mentions above) where Chasen has told me that he is planning to sell it as a package using everyone else's Models, Repaints, and Flightplans for his own profit presumably?) Anyhow, as long as he is no longer planning to do this, then consider the matter closed and I will not mention it again. Ha. It is not other people's flightplans. Those people just helped Chasen with his project. And he mentions this. One of them was me. |
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fernbe
Gate Agent
1990's and 2000's
Posts: 72
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Post by fernbe on Dec 20, 2022 12:55:22 GMT -5
I think it’s incredibly ridiculous that you started this thread. Chasen literally has a thread just below yours from the same time period and is 50 pages longer. If anything, who’s to say your not using his info? Not to mention all of his hard work is free and here you are blasting the guy while SELLING basically the same content. Chasen, I hope this doesn’t deter you from your work. I found this site about 2 years ago, and have spent that time watching your tutorials and adding your 98 flights ever since. I appreciate everything you’ve done and are in the process of doing for the community! This thread is nothing to do with Chasen's 1998 flightplans. (Although from quickly reading through the last of those he has also started using other people's flightplans for that also, I wonder if he got their permission?) The thread is related to Chasen's installer (as he mentions above) where Chasen has told me that he is planning to sell it as a package using everyone else's Models, Repaints, and Flightplans for his own profit presumably?) Anyhow, as long as he is no longer planning to do this, then consider the matter closed and I will not mention it again. Do you think that his whole 1998 project would be possible with just him creating and compiling the flightplans? If there are other people creating 98 plans it's because they got interested with his work and are helping him to make things easier, such as me and eth72s. Also, since I entered the flight simulation world in 2017, I never thinked about selling AI flightplans, because whether free or not, they can be easily edited by any person, since they are in a notepad. |
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Post by chasensfo on Dec 20, 2022 13:10:02 GMT -5
Though despite me messaging him and then having to finally resort to posting this publicly, I still do not have a confirmation from him that he is not going to use them in his payware Installer? Finally resort? Because I didn't message you back in a few hours? Weirdo. One second you want in on the installer, then when I tell you that your "payware" has no place in it, suddenly what I'm doing is "profiting off other people". No. What I'm doing is providing everything I make for FREE to the world, unlike you. The installer will do exactly what the AIG installer does which is downloading flightplans and textures (so all the proper ad revenue and downloads are triggered), so I am not distributing anything at all, just like AIG. Models and textures will be downloaded and converted exactly how they would be manually,except automatically. If you don't want the installer, then you can still download every single item all the same manually. If you don't have the payware FSPX models, it won't install them. You'll need accounts on RAI, Avsim, and other sites just like the AIG installer because the files will be downloaded by your individual accounts. If you use MSFS or P3Dv4/5, models will be sourced from free public places OR converted via MCX and other free programs which will also be downloaded temporarily by the installer. It will support FS9 thru MSFS (and maybe X-Plane as unlike you, when someone asked permission to convert all my files for the X-Plane folks I said "of course"). Scenery will also be included, mostly made by myself, with files to backdate various payware airports IF you own them. It's legal, that's how AIG does it. And unlike you and your pompous payware flight plan projects where you slap 1998 introduced liveries on 1996 plans (which btw Virgin 1996 was already done for free as were many others you covered by Alec's OAG project and others and while you don't use proper cruise speeds, aircraft orders or add charters/cargo), I will never charge for flightplans. Ever. Plus anyone who is a contributor or has helped out the community will always have free access to anything ever sold by bayviationsim. Because unlike you, I value the accessibility of this stuff and the collaborative effort it's taken to create this historic traffic. As I told you in our messages, you are the ONLY person in the entire history of retro traffic to charge for flightplans. Then you have the stones to tell me you want to get involved with the installer and finish my 1989 plans, BUT that you want money per download when people run the installer and get to your plans in addition to whatever you'd make off helping me create the product? And my condition of happily giving you all my in progress 1989 traffic so long as you release it free to everyone was also a problem as you vowed, and I quote, to "never release flightplans free again going forward". So, your solution is to create this delusional thread 2 or 3 hours after I tell you that I have zero interest in doing things your way thinking, what, that everyone would defend your selfish projects that you literally want to segregate from every other person's work before and after you? Seriously, what the hell is this? Yeah, the 98 project isn't just me, none of this is all about me, it's a frigging community that you benefited from and then selfishly try to use for your own gain. Users will survive without an auto download feature for your pristine plans. Edit: And understand I would have never said any of this publicly if you didn't do...this. |
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Post by funk on Dec 20, 2022 14:07:12 GMT -5
Dear Chasen This is a public notice that you are not to use my Flightplans in ANY Uploads / MODIFIED versions / ORIGINAL versions that you are planning in future, whether you are planning to sell them, or not sell them, on either this forum or other web sites. I would appreciate an acknowledgment of this. Thank you Carl Edwards So that I understand this the right way, to get access to your flightplans you charge money? Is that the reason you want people here to request via E-Mail? |
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Post by FSMuseum on Dec 20, 2022 20:29:03 GMT -5
I am not personally against the idea of charging for flight plans if the amount of effort put into them could justify it. I am happy to say that the quality of the 1998 project flight plans and the effort put into providing an extremely complete, easy to install, and highly accurate set of flight plans for one of my favorite time frames in history has left me spoiled. And the best part is that it is all for free. The 1998 project is something I would happily pay money for if it were not free, and sometimes with how much is included in it I have to stop and remind myself of how lucky I am to participate in this community where so much amazing content is created for no personal or monetary gain at all. I would not pay money for Carl's work. Often times, it is incomplete and/or poorly researched, and it is so much less accessible than Chasen's and other's work because of the pay wall, and the lack of links provided to paints, and even just the lack of a thoroughly researched narrative for each set of plans which explains and justifies any quirks that might exist with the plans and gives history of the airline.
To have the gall to come after Chasen knowing everything he has done and provided to our community, free of charge and of exceptional and always improving quality, because of what sounds to me like a difference of opinion and childish impatience, it truly takes some balls, or perhaps stupidity.
This drama is downright malicious. I stand behind Chasen here completely. On multiple occasions he has asked to use my work and provide it to the community or modify it in various ways to suit the needs of the projects he and others create. He has never once been malicious or controlling about it, or taken any of my work without my explicit permission. You mention above that you notice Chasen uses other peoples plans in the 1998 project. Has it not occured to you that these people (myself included) do so WILLINGLY and WITH PERMISSION? In fact, we all talk to each other quite frequently about the project and upcoming parts of it.
This is the kind of thing that drives good people away from our community.
EDIT: I said above that Carl's work is incomplete and poorly researched. To clarify, I do not believe every flight plan created on this forum has to be as complete or fine tuned as most of those in the 1998 project. However, if you're gonna charge money for it, it better be damn good. That's all.
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Post by perficad on Dec 20, 2022 21:01:15 GMT -5
Though despite me messaging him and then having to finally resort to posting this publicly, I still do not have a confirmation from him that he is not going to use them in his payware Installer? Finally resort? Because I didn't message you back in a few hours? Weirdo. One second you want in on the installer, then when I tell you that your "payware" has no place in it, suddenly what I'm doing is "profiting off other people". No. What I'm doing is providing everything I make for FREE to the world, unlike you. The installer will do exactly what the AIG installer does which is downloading flightplans and textures (so all the proper ad revenue and downloads are triggered), so I am not distributing anything at all, just like AIG. Models and textures will be downloaded and converted exactly how they would be manually,except automatically. If you don't want the installer, then you can still download every single item all the same manually. If you don't have the payware FSPX models, it won't install them. You'll need accounts on RAI, Avsim, and other sites just like the AIG installer because the files will be downloaded by your individual accounts. If you use MSFS or P3Dv4/5, models will be sourced from free public places OR converted via MCX and other free programs which will also be downloaded temporarily by the installer. It will support FS9 thru MSFS (and maybe X-Plane as unlike you, when someone asked permission to convert all my files for the X-Plane folks I said "of course"). Scenery will also be included, mostly made by myself, with files to backdate various payware airports IF you own them. It's legal, that's how AIG does it. And unlike you and your pompous payware flight plan projects where you slap 1998 introduced liveries on 1996 plans (which btw Virgin 1996 was already done for free as were many others you covered by Alec's OAG project and others and while you don't use proper cruise speeds, aircraft orders or add charters/cargo), I will never charge for flightplans. Ever. Plus anyone who is a contributor or has helped out the community will always have free access to anything ever sold by bayviationsim. Because unlike you, I value the accessibility of this stuff and the collaborative effort it's taken to create this historic traffic. As I told you in our messages, you are the ONLY person in the entire history of retro traffic to charge for flightplans. Then you have the stones to tell me you want to get involved with the installer and finish my 1989 plans, BUT that you want money per download when people run the installer and get to your plans in addition to whatever you'd make off helping me create the product? And my condition of happily giving you all my in progress 1989 traffic so long as you release it free to everyone was also a problem as you vowed, and I quote, to "never release flightplans free again going forward". So, your solution is to create this delusional thread 2 or 3 hours after I tell you that I have zero interest in doing things your way thinking, what, that everyone would defend your selfish projects that you literally want to segregate from every other person's work before and after you? Seriously, what the hell is this? Yeah, the 98 project isn't just me, none of this is all about me, it's a frigging community that you benefited from and then selfishly try to use for your own gain. Users will survive without an auto download feature for your pristine plans. Edit: And understand I would have never said any of this publicly if you didn't do...this. Ok well I take the underlined above as confirmation that you will not use my flightplans in your installer. Thank you, its all I wanted. Also - as I already stated, I have no problem at all with you making a payware installer, as long as you have sought permission from the authors of all the material included within it. |
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Post by chasensfo on Dec 20, 2022 22:09:31 GMT -5
Thank you, its all I wanted. Also - as I already stated, I have no problem at all with you making a payware installer, as long as you have sought permission from the authors of all the material included within it. I don't think you understand how installers like the Alpha India Group (AIG) One Click Installer and Military AI (MAIW) Matrix work. They don't require permission because they do not distribute products. The users choose what to download, and then the installers download the files from the sources hosting the work of various authors the exact same as if you went on Avsim and clicked download. The only difference is it then does the installation for the user vs the user copy+pasting in the aircraft titles and whatever. If AIG, MAIW or myself were to not ask permission then have the installer already containing paints or flightplans by someone else, and then distribute them, that's illegal. If there is a public FREE link to download and the program does what the user would do with a mouse click and the files are not modified beyond conversion for the private use of said user on their own PC (again, not distributing illegally converted files like the AIM DC-10s), then that is legal. Obviously, I made sure, and obviously, AIG hasn't been sued despite doing the same thing for years now. Your plans and models by a select few developers like FS Painter X and DFAI (biz jets) are the only commercial products involved in this stuff, 99.9% of the required files are freeware to begin with. Since your plans are payware, and require a subscription, it is literally impossible for this installer to use them unless you provided me the links directly for them...so it's not like there is any way I could "sneak" your files into the installer anyway... @fsmuseum thank you. I won't charge for them, but I don't mind charging for a means to make the installation infinitely better. Also working on "missions"/adventures. Lots of 5th freedom and other short/odd routes from 98 will be the first ones, like a KLM 747-400 NGO-CTS-NGO or Cathay 747-400 MAN-AMS with simulated ops freqs and all sorts of stuff to make it immersive and give users a way to enjoy the retro world and fly aircraft normally used for long haul. That's the stuff people are paying for...not flightplans. Lol. It's just funny to me that Vadim, Alec, and other huge contributors have no problem\ego about having their work "improved" (as in just made more realistic as we learn more about flightplans, adapted to repaints that didn't use to exist, adding aircraft they may have missed, etc) yet our friend who started this thread elects to charge for his work, refuse to let others make changes to it for the sake of realism, and won't update said plans himself. That really gets to me as it seems like it goes against everything RetroAI stands for. Hell, Micheal Pearson and Eduardo (who have painted hundreds of planes) both flat-out said they'd rather have me or others make little variations to their paints than expect them to go back and do it themselves more or less...egos just hurt everyone and prevent the retro AI universe from being as realistic as possible. I just don't understand. Besides, when I edit your paints, Mikey's, etc they simply get shared on google drive and the forums. That's it. I don't distribute them as my own, they are just there for those who wish to use them. When Nils or someone better at painting than me does something I painted, I just delete my crappy paint (unless I keep it to give users a more FS9 friendly version) and link to theirs instead. Just because I made the flightplans doesn't mean I think people should have to use my texture with them. It's better for everybody that things improve with time. And very, very few in the retro world have not been on board with that historically. |
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Post by chrisP on Dec 22, 2022 8:15:00 GMT -5
chrisP: What are your thoughts on this? Sorry for taking so long before replying - it's been a very busy time around here. I'll start off by quoting the legal notice I put in all of my releases: legal stuff:
THIS REPAINT IS THE PROPERTY OF THE AUTHOR, AND CANNOT BE
RE-SOLD OR PACKAGED WITH ANY PRODUCT FOR SALE, WITHOUT THE
EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE AUTHOR. THIS IS FREEWARE!!
THIS REPAINT MAY NOT BE UPLOADED TO ANY OTHER SERVER THAN AVSIM.COM
WITHOUT THE AUTHOR'S EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION.
THE AUTHOR IS NOT LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGE THAT YOU MIGHT
INCUR AS A RESULT OF USING THIS PRODUCT. YOU ASSUME THE RISK
OF USE.Key takeaways: 1) The author retains copyright and property - do not make money off his back, even if it's only to cover your fees 2) The author has the last word as to where/how his work can be distributed 3) Disclaimer as to liability (this is particularly relevant when we're talking about packaging with an installer) As far as I know, this is general practice in our community (other members may chime in) In one word, the general rule is "Respect". Kindly adhere to it. Exit runway when able Christian |
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